SPEAKER_01 0:00

Welcome to Fucking My Way to Enlightenment. Today we're in Barcelona with Willow Star, a sex therapist and professor. Tell us more. What do you do? What do you do with sex and education?

SPEAKER_00 0:12

Hello, yes. Thanks for having me. It's great to be here. I am a sex therapist, but I also teach university students. So I my main course is the psychology of human sexuality, which means we're talking all about sex, but not basic sex ed, more related to how people are relating uh to each other, how they're dating, and how their backgrounds and lack of sex education impact the sex that they're having right now. So there's a lot to unpack.

SPEAKER_01 0:39

Today we're gonna talk sex, banging, fucking, making sweet sweet love. Uh what term tickles your fancy? What do you normally go for?

SPEAKER_00 0:47

Probably in the sex therapy context, we use having sex the most often, but I think there's really room for all of these terms, depending on who you're with and what mood you're in, really. So, what is it like to date a sex therapist or have sex with sex therapists? So you might guess that it is uh a lot of talking about sex, and you would be correct. When my partner first came to my house, uh he was overwhelmed at the amount of books that I had about sex. He was like, Is there this much to learn? Does she know everything? And uh the the point is not that I know everything or that there's any point of perfection and knowledge about sex, obviously not, but in that I'm fascinated by it and I'm really passionate about it, about helping people with their sex lives, and I love to talk about it, and luckily he does too. So incredible. And thank goodness.

SPEAKER_01 1:46

Otherwise, otherwise it'd be out then. It wouldn't work for sure. And how did you get into sex therapy? Did you always dream of it as a little girl? I'm gonna be the sex lady.

SPEAKER_00 1:56

Yeah, funny enough, I didn't. I was uh not going down this path at all because I grew up Catholic and in a very conservative family in the suburbs of Pennsylvania and went to an all-girls Catholic school and then an Episcopalian high school, but then for college, I moved to New York City, and that really opened my eyes. And once I moved to New York, I really never looked back because I was fascinated by the liberation that that people there felt and even just the way that they dressed, the way they carried themselves. I do remember writing in my diary, one of the first days in New York, how I was so surprised how people were that you could wear whatever you wanted. You could walk out of the door in a clown suit and no one would care. You can wear whatever you want as long as you're being authentic and passionate about it. So that really sparked my interest in uh authenticity and psychology and why we do the things we do. And then when I started studying psychology, I realized in parallel to my own exploration in sex as someone who was very sheltered, I realized that actually sex is a big part of mental health. But in my psychology classes, no one was really talking about it. It was left out of the textbooks most of the time. So I was like, where is this disconnect? Until I took a class called the psychology of human sexuality, where all we did was talk about sex and relationships, and I was absolutely hooked from there.

SPEAKER_01 3:26

Amazing. And the did that time in New York also corresponded to your personal journey and kind of like liberating yourself sexually? Give us some juicy goss.

SPEAKER_00 3:34

Yes, definitely, definitely. I mean, it was less than a week before I met someone in New York, and their background was much more open than mine. So that really opened my eyes as well. And then being around other people who, you know, when you move to a new city, you're meeting so many new people, you're going to parties, and I was playing school. Sex parties? Not sex parties. Um, not frat parties either, though, because I went to school in New York and it was a very artsy school. So instead of frat parties, I was going to slam poetry, I was going to the Met, I was going to concerts held by friends. So it was um a unique experience, but one where I felt like I could fully be myself and I started to feel more comfortable in my body. And the person that I was dating was very much encouraging me to ask for what I want and to enjoy, which was a totally foreign concept to me.

SPEAKER_01 4:27

I bet coming from old girl school as well. Yeah. I guess there was uh little lesbian temptation. Seems like a lot of people say if you can't have, you know.

SPEAKER_00 4:36

Unfortunately not, but that would have been much better, much more interesting.

SPEAKER_01 4:41

And do you follow your own advice in that?

SPEAKER_00 4:44

I do. I do follow my own advice. Um, one of the biggest pieces of advice I always give is to talk about sex more. And if you know me, you know that I don't really shut up talking about sex. It's my favorite topic. Um, and not just the ins and outs of sex, but insecurities and what's going on in pop culture around sex and why people are having less sex or what makes you have um more desire around sex in a certain period of your life. The best way to kind of um prevent yourself or prepare yourself for any sexual difficulties is to talk about sex more because then whenever something comes up, which inevitably it will, you feel more comfortable talking about it because that topic is already out in the open. So if that's my number one piece of advice, I definitely do take it.

SPEAKER_01 5:31

Talk more about sex.

SPEAKER_00 5:32

That's right. And here we are talking about sex.

SPEAKER_01 5:35

Exactly. Uh I wonder if you like talk more about sex than actually have it. Like sometimes, you know, hours about it. You're like, actually, I'm I'm not interested anymore.

SPEAKER_00 5:42

You know, funny enough, that that doesn't happen to me. So someone, you know, I could definitely see that happening. Like you get so exhausted talking about the same topic that when you get home, you're like, I want nothing to do with that. But it doesn't happen to me with psychology either. I'm all day, I teach at a university, and so I'm all day teaching students about relationships, dating, attachment styles. Um, you know, we talk about all the things that come up in their dating lives as well. So I arrive home though, excited to talk about what's going on and how I related, you know, their lives to basic textbook theory and whatnot. So for me, I love being surrounded by people who are also fascinated by these kinds of deep conversations.

SPEAKER_01 6:24

It's incredible. I wonder, uh though, like as a woman, a relatively young woman, pursuing a profession that maybe 20 years ago wasn't even a thing and teaching that stuff at university, how often is your work dismissed or people come with a little bit of disbelief?

SPEAKER_00 6:39

Or so I do I have friends who also work in this field who on social media they often receive dick pics. That luckily has not been my experience. I I don't know. I hope maybe I'm putting something out there that tells people not to mess with me like that. I'm not sure. Um, but I think that I'm really lucky to work at a school that really values my work. So I haven't really faced that. The people who discredit this work are usually people who feel shame around sexuality or who don't believe in the power of therapy because they haven't experienced it themselves or because they haven't opened up their mind enough to see how it can impact our lives, but it doesn't really affect me that much. Good.

SPEAKER_01 7:25

So but what I'm interested in is well, are you kinky yourself? What are you into? Who are you into? If you can share a little sneak peek.

SPEAKER_00 7:34

Yes, definitely. So I identify as a bisexual, kinky, um, open woman. So for me, that it means freedom, basically. It means freedom from the the boxes of like, this is what it means to be feminine, this is what it means to be um a woman, this is what it means to be in a monogamous relationship. Like the freedom to me comes with um independence and the ability to define what works for me, and that changes over time. So that requires a lot of flexibility. So for me, kink doesn't mean just one thing, and I don't have just one preference or one type of person or one position or whatever. Like it's very changing. And I like to look at sexuality as always evolving, like there's a never-ending world out there of things to explore, right? So why would I box myself into just one? Sure.

SPEAKER_01 8:27

And uh you've mentioned that you open uh poly like ethical non-monogamy, are we talking in your relationship?

SPEAKER_00 8:32

That's right. Yes. Uh consensual non-monogamy. So there's so many forms of non-monogamy, polyamory being one of them. I myself am not poly. Um, but openness has been for many years, even since college, really. This was part of my awakening in college, was realizing that monogamy was not really for me. And I completely understand and advocate for people being monogamous when that is what works for them. And they've actually examined what relationship style best aligns with their values and the way their attachment system and the way their triggers and their personality work. What I don't love to see is when people fall into monogamy by default. I think this is what society says, this is what my parents did. So I guess I'm getting married at 25, having kids by 30, I have the house. By 35. Exactly. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 9:24

Yeah, even not earlier, to be honest. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:27

And I think I take a more realistic approach, but I also, from my own experience, know that um I really value the independence and exploration and novelty and difficulties that come with non-ogamy. A lot of people will say, I could never do that. It sounds so difficult, I would get so jealous. And to that I say it comes with a lot of difficulty, but for me it's very worth it. And I kind of am excited by those challenges because it comes with growth. Whereas for a lot of people, those challenges are just not worth it.

SPEAKER_01 9:59

So you do get jealous, that's what we say.

SPEAKER_00 10:01

I can get jealous for sure. I think I'm on the less jealous side. Um, but definitely does not mean that I'm immune to jealousy. Like that is an emotion I know very well.

SPEAKER_01 10:15

So I guess communication is the main issue, I guess, when people deal with uh and non-monogamy. What I guess you're teaching that within your course too. What is the most common issues that strike people strike over when it comes to monogamy and polyamory, non-ethical non-monogamy?

SPEAKER_00 10:29

The most common issue, let's see. I think the most common issue is that people bring their past relationships into the present without enough awareness. So we all have baggage. We all have it. We're never gonna meet someone who has zero relationship past, right? Um, but when we are unable to distinguish the past from the present, we run into problems because if you do something that triggers me and I'm reacting as if you are my past partner who cheated on me or did something else that really hurt me, it's gonna be hard for us to move forward. So when I'm able to distinguish this relationship is very different, and I'm building a relationship around what I really want and value as opposed to um reacting out of fear. So I think a lot of people do um react out of fear and choose monogamy out of fear as well, because they're afraid of the challenge or the jealousy that comes with openness.

SPEAKER_01 11:31

And uh yeah, we have mentioned also cheating as well. I I wonder uh this is something we discussed happened to me recently as well. And it's like how do you um distinguish cheating? And it's it's it might be a little different for men and women when we talk about emotional versus actually putting a penis in the hole. If I didn't do that, that means I didn't cheat. Um raison and monogamous relationship, I guess.

SPEAKER_00 11:55

People will put all kinds of excuses to say it wasn't cheating, like it wasn't cheating because it was a person of the same gender as I was as I am, or it was um with our clothes on, or this is all spoken about at length in Esther Perel's book, The State of Affairs, which is one of the first books that really opened my eyes to why people cheat and why people in happy relationships cheat. Because they're not just looking for an escape from the person they're with, they're often looking for different versions of themselves and different levels of exploration and self-acceptance or past lives not lived. But to your question about what defines cheating, that's something that I encourage people to talk about early on in the relationship because everyone has their different definition. So one person might define, you know, if someone goes out with their friends, gets drunk, kisses one of their friends, for one person that that relationship is over. For another person, they find it fun or flirty or a turn on, they like it. So that's something that needs to be discussed. You know, when the conversation comes up around exclusivity, where are we going? Do you want a monogamous relationship? Are we doing that now? Are we opening later? Maybe all of that needs to be in conversation. And it's not just one talk, it's an ongoing conversation around our boundaries. And people often think that in open relationships, it's a free-for-all and you can just do whatever you want. But in open relationships, there's also cheating because as humans, a lot of times when someone tells you you can't do something, you want to do it so much more, right? When something is forbidden or taboo, it makes it so much more attractive. So, but it's a conversation that's ongoing.

SPEAKER_01 13:41

And you mentioned you are in an open relationship right now. How did that start? Was it overwhelming for your partner when they came into your place and you started chatting about sex and all that that popped off?

SPEAKER_00 13:52

So my partner does not have a background in sexuality and non-monogamy and all that, but he has a very authentic open mind. And he's been curious since the start and very good at communication. I would say he's better than I am at keeping that open line of communication. Um, he's also someone who's extremely empathetic and able to understand and wants obviously the best for the relationship, not just the best for him. So from the start, I was honest about this is how I work. Um, would you be open to that? Because from the first date, I said, I'm not looking for one person for life. And uh he didn't have experience in non-monogamy, but he also didn't close himself off to it. But we, you know, we took a slow, a slower approach. We weren't diving into swinging and swapping and you know hooking up with other people right away. It took a while to build that trust and feel like we had that established home base before we started exploring.

SPEAKER_01 14:55

So I bet he was a little bit intimidated too.

SPEAKER_00 14:59

I um yeah, I could definitely see that. But you know, one thing is what you talk about and what you study and what you work with, what I see in couples and how I help them navigate these things. And another thing is when you are actually dealing with it in relationship, right? And I also have my own triggers, I have my own weak spots in navigating relationships. So he's been really, really good at fitting into or kind of picking up where picking up the slack where I am lacking, let's say.

SPEAKER_01 15:29

Beautiful. Um and uh moving on from this, I was I was um when it comes to consent, this also part of the communication, a big part. Um I've been also in a kink scene last couple years, and uh it's it's it's crazy to see when people assume kink obviously it's shame so much, but actually a lot of stuff is driven by consent, and everyone is always checking. Can I put a pillow on your face? And you're like, sure, why not? You know? Versus sometimes you have vanilla sex and someone is non-consensually pushing your head down. And this feels weirder and more perverted by just doing a very minuscule gesture that actually makes you feel like someone is putting out their own trauma out on you almost. Um you know, there's dirty talk, but the dirty talk is like you hoar, and they're not playing with you in a safe container, but it's more like you hate women and you're putting it out of me. Um, so I don't know, maybe a little bit about consent and how we can work on the consent in the relationship, bring it out more uh between ourselves.

SPEAKER_00 16:27

Yeah, definitely. I think one thing that vanilla people can learn from kink and BDSM is the ongoing conversation that is consent. And some people think of consent as this basic clinical conversation before we have sex, right? When the fuck yes or no, and they think of it as black and white, but consent is an ongoing check-in. So if you are not ready to have open conversations about your boundaries and limits, what might be okay, what might not, safe words, safe gestures, all of that, then I don't think that you should be getting into bed with that person. Like if we are not mature enough to be honest about these things and respect the other person's boundaries, then we shouldn't get into it. I think with with Kink and BDSM, we are often playing with um our own limits. And we're doing that on purpose and we're doing that consciously, which is where real growth can happen as well. Um, where we can push the limits of something that maybe we thought wasn't possible. Um, but doing it with someone that you really trust and that has your safety and well-being in mind is of course the best way to do it.

SPEAKER_01 17:38

Yeah, I personally also had experience when I had to surrender control in a safe environment and I'm a control freak myself, or used to be. It was very hard, but also transformative in a way in in many areas of life too. Um, yeah, with what you've mentioned with the consent being such a hard yes and no at the beginning, I think sometimes women it's hard throughout the intercourse to also say that maybe they don't want to continue, or this is not okay.

SPEAKER_00 18:03

Right. And especially as women, we are so conditioned to keep going with something that we're not enjoying, or we don't want to ruin the moment, or if I didn't say something five minutes ago when it didn't feel good, why would I say something now? Or we think, well, hopefully it's over soon, it's not worth saying something. Like there's all these narratives that are going on in our head. Um, and I think it's very rare for for someone, especially a woman, to not have any experiences like this. And based on how the last person responded when I said, let's stop, or this doesn't feel good, that's also going to determine whether or not I say something now. So I think it's really important, everyone getting involved in any sort of sexual scenario, to make it very clear to the other person that we can stop at any point for any reason. You don't need to give me any explanation. We just stop, no questions asked. And after that, I'm not gonna mope around, or I'm not gonna be in a mood, or I'm not gonna be passive aggressive, or kind of mad at you. I'm going to not only be okay with your no, but celebrate your no. When's the last time someone celebrated your no? It's quite uncommon for me.

SPEAKER_01 19:13

But it's so hot. And someone says, like, hey, we don't have to do anything, and there's no pressure. That's when I'm like, we definitely gonna be bagging.

SPEAKER_00 19:20

Exactly. It's paradoxical, but it totally works. Like because I feel safe enough to not do anything and safe enough to stop at any point, that makes me feel confident to jump in to something new.

SPEAKER_01 19:34

Beautiful. And what's your professional opinion on the sex work?

SPEAKER_00 19:39

My professional opinion is, and my personal opinion is that sex work should be decriminalized. That's the best framework for everyone involved, as much the clients as the workers. I think we need to be offering basic human rights to the workers and also safety parameters so that they can engage in this work in a way that their bodies and their boundaries are respected. So there's a lot of talk around legalization versus criminalization. Legalization um comes with its own difficulties as well. Like, for example, someone needs to register with the police department as a sex worker, and that's something that could later come up in custody battles, job interviews, a label that they maybe do not want to have next to their name for the rest of their lives. Um, and criminalization obviously comes with so much danger attached to it and um safety concerns, trafficking, pimps. When we have a criminalization framework like we do in so many parts of the world, in in the US, most in most of the US, it's a criminalization framework. Um authorities are putting their efforts where their efforts should not where their efforts should not be. Authorities are focusing on adults doing consensual sex work instead of focusing on actual victims.

SPEAKER_01 21:00

Yeah, but that's what the state does. They decide what is violence and what is illegal crimes. Well, they often doing terrorist acts themselves. So Right.

SPEAKER_00 21:08

And I think it's not a coincidence that many sex workers are women and many sex workers are people of color, immigrants, um, gender nonconforming folks, trans folks. So oftentimes um prostitution as a crime uh is not someone actually engaging in the selling of sex, but someone looking a certain way, someone walking around in a certain neighborhood. So there's so much um racism and sexism and transphobia that also goes into uh the policing of the selling of sex.

SPEAKER_01 21:45

Well, these days I think uh we talked about a little bit about um safe space with kink and trusting someone in that space. Um it's hard. I think it's hard these days if we lack a bit of connection and it's hard to be vulnerable. Someone and especially with men in this day and age when we bombard it with from Giselle Pellicot to you know rape academy, it's like how can I trust a man as a species? We end up being like most of them do kill the girlfriend. I mean, most girlfriends and wives do dive at the hands of the boyfriends and husbands. Um so it's I think when you're trying to relax with someone and uh and and really show your true colors, there's that maybe at the back of women's head too. Is that something that maybe you deal with as issues when you work with women?

SPEAKER_00 22:30

Definitely. It's a very real concern for every woman. And you just turn on the news for 30 seconds and you're bombarded with this information about gender violence, it's hard not to think of it. You know, sometimes people have thoughts during sex that are distracting them, that are, you know, about the grocery list or what needs to be done or the kids. And sometimes they are worries about genuine violence, which is um a concern that I think would be helpful if more men empathized with. So I think women feel safer when men are um empathizing with this conversation around it is dangerous for you to walk home at night. I understand that. Um, or you know, you do have women often do have to pay more money to get to their first dates in an Uber, right? Because it's not safe to get home uh just walking and all of these kinds of concerns that women deal with on a daily basis. We we think about all the time when we leave the house, what am I wearing? Um, what kind of attention am I going to be drawing? Whether it's if I'm wearing high heels, if I'm wearing lipstick, if I'm wearing a low-cut shirt, if I'm wearing a skirt, like we are always thinking about these things. And it does not even matter what we are wearing or how we are presenting, that violence is always there as a threat. Um, so in some places more than others, but I think it does help, at least it helps my clients to know that there are men advocating for them and there are men who are on our side and understand.

SPEAKER_01 23:55

Hashtag not all man. Suck it, motherfuckers. Um, I hear you. I some, especially if I'm baked when I'm stoned. I had moments when I was having sex with someone and I was like, it's a psychopath that's about to kill me. It does make sex, thinking that it's the last time you're having sex, you're like, might as well enjoy the ride, maybe the best intercourse you've ever had.

SPEAKER_00 24:17

It's a double-sided sword, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:20

But yes, I've been that also thought before that you know, taxi driver is of course gonna kill me. And uh even that I am in my own woman's show, and this is my last episode because I'm gonna die at the end of it. So don't always listen to your thoughts and your brains.

SPEAKER_00 24:33

Right. I mean, we need to stop looking at violence against women as a women's issue and as a human's issue. It's everyone's issue. It doesn't you don't need to have daughters or sisters to care about this. Everyone should care about this.

SPEAKER_01 24:47

Sure. And um how about pornography these days? We all know how people complain that it's shaping the youth out there, that young boys especially are replicating patterns that they see that often are non-consensual or violent, and the areas in their brains that they get activated when they watch porn is more responsible for things rather than humans. Um is there ethical porn? Is porn even good for us?

SPEAKER_00 25:13

So, porn, there's such a huge range of porn out there from mainstream to more ethical porn. No porn is perfect, but there are definitely more um ethically produced and created um sources out there that can be really helpful and have been really helpful for a lot of my clients to see sex represented as something that is um authentic and that everyone in any um body type and any kink, um, as long as it's consensual, anyone is deserving of pleasure. That that is our birthright. You deserve pleasure. So porn can be really powerful to see what's out there, what's on the menu, it can give you inspiration, um, but it can also, yes, do a lot of damage. And the main reason for me that it does a lot of damage is because we have porn and we have no sex education. So because we are seeing porn without this education, this makes porn very problematic. But porn itself is not the problem. Porn is entertainment. We need to take it as such and stop understanding it as reality or education, or that's how I should look, that's how I should be, that's how long I have to last, et cetera. We need to take it for what it is, it's entertainment. And young people don't have that information. They see porn, that's the only information they're getting about sex. Some other kids are talking about it at school. They maybe ask a friend, they ask a family member, but who knows what messaging they're getting around porn and what people in their class are saying. If there's no one there to dispel the myths that we all pick up around sexuality, what we should look like, what we should sound like, then it does do damage in terms of how they see healthy sex. And that is one of the main pillars of my work as a sex therapist is undoing those myths around sexuality, about what we should be doing.

SPEAKER_01 27:04

And looking, you've mentioned too, this is a big part as well. I moved when I moved to Germany almost 10 years ago and I started going to Sonas and like actually being around real naked bodies, which you never I've never was before. Just you being used to magazines, you're like, oh, this fanny tiris, the seven toes here, you know. You're like, oh, actually you get used to seeing like with more ethical pornography, different body types, and you're like, okay, I do not have to expect my girl to look plastic.

SPEAKER_00 27:29

Yes, I think we would all be better off if we spent more time at nude beaches and less time watching porn because we see real bodies. That can be genuinely healing for people to go to a nude beach and feel like, wow, I can just be free, I can let go. I don't have to, you know, sit a certain way, suck in my tummy and try to look sexy at all times. I mean, especially uh women are trained to be looking the most feminine and sexy and attractive to the male gaze at all times. And when we take away the the nudity is not inextricably linked to sexuality, the body just is. We are the ones with our own gaze making it sexual.

SPEAKER_01 28:12

With the university students, um are the people open to what you're teaching? Do you have any like backlash or issues that uh your openness to talk about uh sex has brought some shame and guilt at our amongst your audiences?

SPEAKER_00 28:27

So I've been teaching university students for the last almost five years, and I have seen changes over the years in their openness level. There's a lot of difference between where they come from as well. So the students that I have, they're all coming from the US. Um, the ones that come from Oregon are very open. The ones that come from Texas, not so much. So it's also necessary to adapt the material to the different groups. But I do notice that, yes, in the last year or so, there has been more pushback because of the political climate that we're in. And on the more conservative side of things, they do not like the idea of comprehensive sex education, often see it as indoctrination or telling kids to have sex. But what we know from the research time and again is that better sex education actually leads kids to delay their first sexual experience longer until they're older, and they're also more likely to use protection when they have sex. So the STI rates are lower, pregnancy rates are lower, and self-esteem is higher when we actually have sex at.

SPEAKER_01 29:38

Well, that's another thing with not only self-esteem, but just healthy psyche and this sex being such a huge part of our lives and various institutions trying to shut it down and and make it like a guilty, shameful thing. Um to even, you know, have interviewed people who also, you know, sexual energy is our creative energy. So what we do with that power, how we treat it, is gonna really affect uh our lives.

SPEAKER_00 30:01

Yes, I cannot look at someone's wellness or psychological well-being without looking at their relationship to sex. So I always ask clients that at the beginning, you know, even in the first um intake, what's their relationship like with sex? What's their background in sex ed? How did their family talk about nudity and about sex? How does their cultural background relate to sex? It's all so important. And uh for a lot of people, unfortunately, it's wrapped up in shame.

SPEAKER_01 30:29

So there's like a question though when I would come as a client, you'd be like, what's Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:34

I have a lot of questions. The beginning of therapy is yeah, a lot of intake, a lot of understanding you because the uh the direction that we're gonna go in therapy is very much tailored to your needs. There's not a one size fits all. Of course, there's a lot of things like working with different types of desire or shame around sex, dispelling myths about how sex should be. There's a lot of that that I do with all of my clients, but there are a lot of questions at the beginning. So if you're thinking about going to therapy, you do need to be ready to do some introspection and self-reflection.

SPEAKER_01 31:09

And uh, what about kind of when people have like kind of twisted desires? So obviously, what is twisted? What is that? And there's uh this stuff that is being shamed by society versus stuff that is obviously unethical. Um, but where do you think these kind of desires come from?

SPEAKER_00 31:24

It's a really hot question in the field of sex research, and there isn't a one size fits all answer, but the word kinky basically means like twisted, like you said. And anything that is kinky is basically outside of the basic monella or heteronormative box. Yeah. What you see in the notebook probably would be the most, you know, romance basic form of sex that we grow up seeing. So anything that diverges from that often gets categorized as kinky, but it also depends on the culture that we're in and the times that we're in. So about 20 years ago, sex toys would be seen as kinky. Now, you know, we're using vibrators as microphones. And here in Barcelona, we have sex shops, almost as many as we have pharmacies. So it's very normalized. And I think living in a very sex positive city is very helpful for people where they can find spaces to connect with other kinky folks and have community around their kink because it is part of their identity. But what is what is twisted or what is weird, everyone wants to know am I normal? And the answer 99% of the time is yes. Unless you are harming someone or harming yourself or something's non-consensual, something that you think is super weird, or I have this crazy fantasy I've never told anyone. I can pretty much guarantee you that there are plenty of people who have also had that fantasy.

SPEAKER_01 32:57

So And FornHub is a great example of that because you will find everything. You think that somebody hasn't thought about it? They have, and it's thousands of people watching it.

SPEAKER_00 33:05

Exactly. They have, they've filmed it, everyone's watching it. So it's it's uh basically comforting to know that you're not the only one, and you're not the only one struggling with whatever is the issue for you right now, whether that's low desire, not having an orgasm, intrusive thoughts during sex, or feeling uncomfortable in your body. Thousands and thousands of people are struggling with the same things. So you're definitely not alone.

SPEAKER_01 33:31

And you've mentioned the notebook, the movie. Yes. Which I think for me also very non-consensual because there's a scene there where he forces her to go out with him, otherwise he's gonna kill her, kill himself on the merry-go-round. Which now when it's like many of these films, when you look at it, it's like it's super problematic. You're like basically blackmailing this woman, otherwise, you're gonna commit suicide.

SPEAKER_00 33:50

Horrible. Horrible. I mean, but so many of the movies that we grew up with are portraying toxic relationships as the pinnacle of romance. And that's very harmful to our brains. As they're developing, when we're growing up, we are building the schemas for what a healthy relationship is. And so many of us grew up with actual relationships like our parents or aunts, uncles having relationships that were full of conflict or stonewalling, and then we turn to TV and movies and we see more bad examples of relationships. So then when we um grow up and we're supposed to magically have a healthy relationship, a lot of us find ourselves without any tools for that.

SPEAKER_01 34:30

Yeah, and I think also the perception of romantic gestures, yes, that's another thing when it's like literally stalkerish behavior. If he loves you, he'll fight for you. No means kind of, no means try again. And um, I have been so I remember I was once stalked by someone who found me on Tinder and I swiped left. I swiped, no, I can't remember which up down. You haven't used Tinder for years, actually. But um, he found me on LinkedIn and he was like, It's your can you give me another chance? It's your mistake that you've used the same photographs that you use on Tinder as you used on LinkedIn. And I thought to myself, if it was hot, I would have been like, Wow, he knows I'm special. This is what we grow up on, you know. This gesture, depending on how you feel about the person, how attractive they are. I mean, was it you, the TV show that also showed some and we're crushing on this guy like he's literally a stalker and a murderer? I mean, I had a crush on Dexter, so I'm in no position to judge. So but I love gingers, so I thought.

SPEAKER_00 35:29

Yeah, I am someone who views romantic gestures with a little bit of skepticism because I've also seen so many times in my clients, especially when I work with couples, I've seen romantic gestures like you know, buying them fancy jewelry completely empty. Like that gesture is not backed by behavior change. So to me, the ring or the fancy necklace or the expensive clothes, it doesn't really mean anything unless it's matched by your behavior. But, you know, growing up with with movies like this where the man, you know, impresses the woman with all this money or gifts. Um we are blinded by these gestures sometimes and we forget about the other red flags.

SPEAKER_01 36:18

What is the romantic gesture that takes your fancy?

SPEAKER_00 36:21

The one that I personally like the most. Probably washing the dishes. Yeah, really gets me going. Sexy.

SPEAKER_01 36:30

I hear you.

SPEAKER_00 36:32

And that is true for my clients as well. I mean, especially um women in straight relationships, they will say all the time, when we will go through their turn-ons and their turn-offs, and not just in the moment, but on a larger scale, when do they feel like they can step into their sexier side? And I cannot tell you how many of them say, when the house is clean, when I see my husband picking up the kids' toys, when I see him taking out the trash, emptying the dishwasher without me having to say it. It's hot.

SPEAKER_01 37:04

And the problem sometimes is I've been with a partner who sometimes when I would ask him to take stuff out, you'd be like, I was gonna do it, but now you ask, so you ruin it, so it's not organic anymore. I want to do it of my own accord, and now it's forced. And I'm like, well, the trash needs still taking out, so um, what to do, you know, to it's it's tricky. But yeah, I hear someone cleaned my kitchen recently and I was like, This is so hard.

SPEAKER_00 37:27

Right? Yeah, that will that will be more important than I don't know, flowers. How do you feel about flowers?

SPEAKER_01 37:35

I changed my um perception of it. I I never really received flowers before, but recently I I I think my friends' circle that I've changed over the last couple years, we give each other flowers more often. It is a beautiful gesture, and I'm I'm loving it. But not flowers for a special occasion, aka Valentine's or birthdays, but just like you know, I saw a flower somewhere in a shop and I got you one spontaneously. That's nice.

SPEAKER_00 37:57

Yeah, for me, flowers is another thing that I look at as what's behind the flowers, right? Remember that episode in Sex in the City where big scents carry a big bouquet of roses, and she is wowed by these were so expensive, the thought and the money that went into this. And she calls him and he says, Oh, yeah, my secretary had your birthday in the calendar. And she's like, Oh, so it was your secretary. He's like, No, I paid the money, and where's the romance in that? I hear, yes.

SPEAKER_01 38:28

Same with like um feeling seen and wanted. I think that's another thing that really gets women going. Definitely. Just feeling the desire and the buildup. That's I think for me, at least that's uh probably for everyone.

SPEAKER_00 38:42

Definitely feeling desired but also seen and accepted for your flaws and feeling desired in a way that isn't just as an object. Like plenty of us can enjoy that, right? It's fun to be objectified sometimes, but when you want that, not when your husband is just wanting the easy way to quickly relieve his sexual tension. And the wife is often like, wait, that's not how my desire works. It's not just spontaneous, it doesn't happen out of nowhere. I need to be kind of warmed up mentally and physically for a longer time.

SPEAKER_01 39:15

Do you think it's a current issue or this we just talk about male loneliness epidemic or in general loneliness epidemic in this world anyway? And and we do struggle to connect with you know online apps and uh kind of superficiality of everything. Um, how to work on our vulnerability? It's for me, also sober sex has been a I quit drinking two years ago and I I still do drugs, I'm assuming. Um but it's been such a challenge how to do that organically, to really go on a date with someone and look them in the eyes and not be awkward on what to do. So um I bet this is also an area that you work with your clients a lot as well.

SPEAKER_00 39:50

Definitely. Intimacy in general is as one of my mentors, Dr. Holly Richmond says, she defines it as into me, you see. So I think it's really important that with someone we're able to be vulnerable in order to connect. Can you connect through a screen? Yes, absolutely. But we also need that skin-to-skin contact. We are social beings. Our attachment system is built on connection. And as babies, we need, we don't just want, we need that comfort and affection and skin-to-skin contact. So um, it's really important for our mental health to be able to feel connected, supported, loved. Um, we are not just animals out in the wild, we are human, human creatures. Um, but I think the the male loneliness epidemic, I do think there's too much from some men who are feeling lonely, uh, pointing fingers at women for hating men. But I think part of that comes from women feeling frustrated that men are not understanding how hard it is to exist as a woman and feel safe and fight off all of the constant danger that is um just walking around around in a city as a woman. Um I think men who feel like they're part of the loneliness epidemic can take responsibility for adding more connection into their lives. So if they are hiding behind a screen or commenting on women's Instagram profiles, nasty things about their bodies, of course you're lonely. I don't I don't think that that comes as a huge surprise. I think if men who are feeling that way made more of an effort to meet women where they are or to empathize with their experience, women as well show a lot more understanding to men's experience because we are not out here saying, Oh, it's so easy to be a man, you have no idea, everything comes easy for you as a white man. That's not the idea. But women are looking for some level of understanding, and when they feel like men are combating everything that they say, then of course that that woman is not wanting to connect with that man.

SPEAKER_01 42:08

And it's a constant blame, I guess, too. And you know, many say like women are not happy with barmenum anymore. When we used to need a man for a bank account, for property, to have someone, and now you if you want to be with someone, you want to be with them. That means that that them has to be something that you actually want to be around. And that's means that some people have to put an effort in, and that's yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:30

Yes, I do think there are waves of conservative men saying, Oh, women don't want to have sex with me because I put on my profile that I am a Republican. And it's like, well, yeah, her body does not feel safe around you when you are actively trying to take her rights away. It's not surprising that she doesn't want to get naked and be vulnerable with you. So I think some of them need to look in the mirror and understand why women are not wanting to connect with them.

SPEAKER_01 43:03

Fair, definitely. And I think a lot of um yeah, behaviors around what who who women go for and and choose, not just politically. I think that became over the last couple years, especially with with Palestine and and many other issues that that are happening at the moment, fascism and whatnot, you know, pretty much everywhere. Um yeah, these kind of parts of us became really important when choosing a partner. Like, you know, maybe 10 years ago you wouldn't that bother that much about people's political opinions, but now you're like when you're selecting a partner, you're like, it's a no-go for me.

SPEAKER_00 43:36

I cannot imagine being with someone who does not share these core political it's everyday. So everything that we are doing is political. Sex edit is political, therapy is political, access to education, um, to mental health resources. That is all political our relationships are. So there is no way of dancing around those topics in a genuine Relationship. It's the core of what our connection is. If you are actively trying to take your partner's rights away, how are they supposed to trust you?

SPEAKER_01 44:11

And I think you gotta get those questions out early on. I last year I waited till third date before I talked about Palestine. And the guy was like, Oh yeah, I don't really follow much. I'm more into Ukraine war. Oh. Yeah. Like it's a superhero you're into. Yeah. So yep. Just gotta ask these questions early on.

SPEAKER_00 44:31

Definitely. And for a lot of people, it's a deal breaker. And I fully support that. I think that it is that important. Like when people think, oh, opposites attract, right? Or it it's yes, opposites attract in terms of like you love surfing and I love baking. Yeah. But our values need to align.

SPEAKER_01 44:53

And I think sometimes we also do go onto the other side and we do judge people for having certain opinions without having compassion. I have recently had an encounter too when I was speaking to someone who wasn't quite aligned with my opinions, but I still trusted that it's a beautiful, genuine person. And we had a very challenging discussion that brought a lot of compassion out of me, thinking like, well, if I was brought up where that person was brought up, and on the media that they did. And at the end, really both of us were willing to hear each other out. And um, the other person actually admitted that they were they needed more education on the topic, and we reflected around respect for human life, and that's what we both shared. Just yeah. I think we also get so radicalized now that we just like if anybody has a different opinion, it's also like out. I'm not saying you need to fuck a Republican or a Nazi. However, some brave women were doing that during World War, Second World Wall, and killing them afterwards or sabotaging. Um, but yeah, doing cads work out there.

SPEAKER_00 45:52

I do think dating apps have the power to unite people that maybe wouldn't have access before. Like, think of queer people living in a town in the middle of nowhere. They can now find other queer folks who live in the city or somewhere else, and that's access they didn't have before. But yeah, I do also think that by commodifying um human connection, we have lost some of that. I worked as a matchmaker in New York uh years ago, and I found that people came to me with a grocery list of their requirements for what they wanted in a partner. And with those clients, we didn't have much success. Six point six foot six foot two? Height, hair, what neighborhood they live in, how much money they make, what university they went to. Wow. But the clients who were looking for, I want someone with a similar sense of humor as I have, I want someone who's passionate, who's driven, who is able to be silly, who has a strong self-esteem. These clients were able to have a lot more success in the dating world because they were focused on the things that really matter, like the values that we just spoke about.

SPEAKER_01 47:05

These days, I mean, I've been dabbing in it too. Ladies, especially older ladies, I'm not that old, but you know, we do tend to dab, or it's more common, maybe more spoken about, to dab into younger men. Um tru why do you think is that? True or false.

SPEAKER_00 47:22

Well, true. Um, I don't know if more women are doing it these days or it's just being talked about more. Like you said. But there's many different reasons why women might look for a younger man. Um, and there's separate conversations around why they would want a relationship with them versus why they would want to have sex with them. If it's a sex conversation, um obvious uh obvious um attraction to younger men because of their energy, stamina, their zest for life, um and just their feeling, general feeling of being alive, right? So something people often look for, especially when they hit about midlife, whether they're married or not, is this feeling of aliveness. And it's something that Esther Perell talks about a lot as a reason for why people cheat. Because they at a certain point in life, and a lot of people felt like this during the pandemic, they ask the question, like, is this it? Is this the rest of my life? It just is it going to just continue plateauing or is there something else? And when women hook up with a younger man, they have this, probably you tell me, this kind of peak of energy or aliveness or hope or fun and lightness, as opposed to maybe the more traditional scripts around gender roles and what sex should look like that maybe men their own age are are uh preaching. What's been your experience with it?

SPEAKER_01 48:52

I think it's a mix. Uh definitely the the the gender uh assumptions and um certain stereotypes or expectations that men my age might have. There is a certain level of aliveness. I I am a a pretty youthful person that is very active, and sometimes men my age kind of you know want to stay at home and they like not really that bothered, but of course this is a generalization. Um penises, yes, they do do have more life in them too, and the younger they are, obviously legal uh age, and um but I think it's also at some point uh for me at least it was potentially also uh a little bit of um having more control. Yeah, in a way. What do you mean?

SPEAKER_00 49:35

Maybe with an older man, I would feel like they would tell me what to do or try to dominate me, or um yeah, like so exploring different sides of yourself or different aspects of your sexual personality?

SPEAKER_01 49:49

That too, but also I think it was just not really down for a man telling me what to do. So that was my my kind of like, no, I'm gonna tell them what to do. Uh-huh. But you can do that obviously with anyone of any age group too. Um so maybe there's a bit of power play and yeah, I think it's a bit of a sense of a lot of things, uh-huh. Uh not just like one I could pinpoint. Um maybe I don't know, I'm healing my inner child, and I'm like, this is I just want to also be like, you know, when I look at like someone slightly younger than me, indie boys who are troubled, I'm like, I'm healing my own inner troubled boy.

SPEAKER_00 50:22

And it feels good to feel desired, right?

SPEAKER_01 50:25

Yeah, you can really impress them. It doesn't take much, the bar is low. Um and yeah, for me also another part like I mentioned before, um I sobriety really threw the span in the works over the last couple years. So um Yeah, I was really rethinking who am I even attracted to or what drives me. Uh and then on top of that, I was yeah, trying to reinvent what intimacy can look like, vulnerability. It was really hard for me the first couple months. Um I was vaping my weight vape, of course, uh, but then the thoughts appear too. I'm overthinking stuff and getting paranoid, so not ideal either. Uh to have sex with a definitely a potential killer uh and a psychopath. Um but yeah, it's been uh it's been a struggle.

SPEAKER_00 51:09

Have you had many clients that dealt with like sobriety as an issue or not so much sobriety, but peeling away past scripts or past relationship traumas. And once they realize that they've been repeating the same type of relationship and they want to do things differently, that's like giving up the drug because they're like, okay, I don't have this crutch anymore of chasing the unavailable man. I don't want that for myself. I'm not gonna continue on that same roller coaster the rest of my life. I'm gonna make different choices now, and I'm gonna make them from a place of what's actually healthy for me versus what's exciting, what's sexy, what's dangerous. So it's a different operating system, the same way it is when you are sober.

SPEAKER_01 51:54

I think for me also the alcohol was obviously Dutch courage, and it really was an excuse almost to really feel yourself and really be in your body, which I maybe wasn't that accustomed to as in sobriety. So this gave me like a window of like really being wild and doing stuff versus that felt kind of awkward to do it without it. So now yeah.

SPEAKER_00 52:16

I am a sober sex at a Tuesday at 9 a.m. with the lights on kind of person. I feel like that's too much for me.

SPEAKER_01 52:23

I'm sorry, no.

SPEAKER_00 52:25

I feel like if we can be naked literally with ourselves and with another person like that, then we everything else comes much easier. Whereas if we are hiding behind alcohol and the lights off and the mood being just right, then our desire or our satisfaction is a little bit more fragile.

SPEAKER_01 52:47

And maybe more performative too in a way.

SPEAKER_00 52:49

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 52:50

And that's another issue that I've also been, I mean, most of us were working too. That we mentioned male gaze before and pornography and all that, and they're like really stopping and thinking, what do I enjoy and what I want to do, and who am I doing this for?

SPEAKER_00 53:02

Yes. Even the way that we dress, the way that I dress, is it comfortable for me, or am I performing this to look a certain way for someone? So it is like taking off the glasses and taking down the uh facade that you put on for other people. So sex can be very performative. I myself struggled with that as using sex as a way to um feel approval or acceptance or validation. Oh, if this person, this man, usually, um thinks that I am good at sex, then I will maintain his mark of approval. That kind of sex was not satisfying. Comes as a surprise to no one that I wasn't enjoying that sex because I wasn't coming uh at it from a place of authenticity. So I wasn't able to speak, this is what I want, or can you touch me slower or less, or can you do this faster or say that? I wasn't able to say any of those things or grab a vibrator or um do what I needed to do to get to an orgasm or just to enjoy because I felt awkward or I felt like I shouldn't do that, or that he wouldn't like it.

SPEAKER_01 54:10

And for me, experience uh of sexual encounters with women, do you find that uh there is automatically more of a shared vulnerability and openness? You're not scared that someone's gonna stab you to start with, uh, if you say something, but in general, obviously there's also no uh finale completion of someone coming and that's the end of it. It's just kind of go on for hours and hours and hours. Um but there's almost like a certain level of um intimacy.

SPEAKER_00 54:36

I don't know if you've safety, intimacy, almost like a yeah, shared experience because we've moved through the world in a similar way. Um, I do find that can sometimes backfire though, because feeling a sense of sisterhood and friendliness can sometimes contradict the fiery passion. So it depends what type of sex you are looking for at this point in your life. If you need to feel really safe, or if you want something that feels more risky, or if you want a mix of both, then that's something you can really build with someone. But of course, finding that mix of both is something you're not gonna be able to do without talking about sex. But I do find that yes, the experience with a man versus a woman or a gender non-conforming person is yeah, it's very different. Um, and both have their their own challenges, but yeah, their own important we do it all.

SPEAKER_01 55:31

You gotta try it on. Like a serial killer with no pattern, just it's my motto. Um, let's say about orgasm gap. I know this is a topic that you've also been dabbing in a lot, and um yeah, being in the right headspace, sober or not, and unpeeling all those expectations or roles that we playing and really diving into what we want and what turns us on uh is uh is a first part of it. But what else comes into the brain, especially of a woman, I guess?

SPEAKER_00 56:05

Right. So the orgasm gap refers to how many orgasms are people having in a casual hookup encounter? And straight women are the ones who are having the least. Straight men are having the most. When we look at queer women, they're not having so much of a struggle. So that begs the question: what's the problem here? Is it that women and their bodies are so complicated, it's so difficult for them to have an orgasm? Or is it the context and who they're with and how safe they feel and how comfortable they feel speaking up for what they want? So it's a combination of all the factors. We can't just point to one thing, and it's definitely not to blame the men that they're with. Um unfortunately, it's not as easy as pointing the finger at one group of people. Um, but it's a complex web of factors, which I do think there's a lot of things that are going on in our society right now that are helping with that. Like, for example, the acceptance of sex toys. I think now compared to 10 years ago, it's much more talked about to pull out a vibrator. Like if the man has an orgasm and then the woman is like, Oh, uh, I would like to grab a toy and this is what works for me. And can you um, you know, sit with me, touch me, kiss me, talk to me. And that is, I remember when I saw that in a movie uh called Newness, it was about a couple young couple opening their relationship and doing it in a very chaotic way. But I remember when she, the woman in the in the story, hooked up with a you know, one night stand she met on Tinder. And after he finished, she said, like, oh, okay, I guess I'll just take care of myself because he didn't care. And I was like, wow, that is um great representation that I never see. You don't see that in the notebook, you don't see that in any kind of typical romance movies that we grew up with, right? You usually see a silhouette of missionary sex happening in a perfectly timed, yeah, three minutes, they come at the same time, and then the sheets are over, and they wake up in the morning, get coffee and a croissant, and everything's perfect. They never talk about it. No one had any feelings of insecurity or doubt. No one needed to pee. Nobody's dog jumped on the bed, like everything just worked perfectly. Um, and we know that part of the beauty of sex, of course, is that it's messy and there's challenges. So that gets lost in the movies, of course.

SPEAKER_01 58:33

And I guess also ten years ago, I mean, some people still to this point, whipping out a toy feels like you're saying you are not enough to them. We'll take it personally, your penis is not doing not doing you not doing the right job. That means you're getting replaced by a toy.

SPEAKER_00 58:48

You know, in Finding Nemo, when they say fish are friends, not food. Sex toys are friends, not competition. So they are there to add to the experience, not take away from your prowess, yeah, your ego, right? So we need to look at it as what can we add to the experience of someone else's pleasure and our shared experience of enjoyment, not how can I prove that I am the best? Because that's not what sex is about. It's not a competition.

SPEAKER_01 59:18

Love me a bit of a pillowtop after when it's like, how was it? Did you come?

SPEAKER_00 59:21

I'm like, if there's yeah, I mean, if you have to ask that and there's no and you're laying there like not even close. Why would you even think uh clearly there's a big disconnect there? You probably in that scenario might not even feel comfortable taking out a toy because you feel like this person doesn't care enough about your pleasure to even bother. Maybe you'll wait until they're gone and do it yourself. More efficient.

SPEAKER_01 59:48

Yes, more efficient. So, do you have any tips or um maybe I'm not saying quick fixes, but any advice on uh how to work on the orgasm gap? If you are a woman that is a non-binary person who is struggling with or a man, but I guess that's a little different for them with an erectile dysfunction. There's some different factors to account here.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:10

Right. Yeah, definitely. So if we're speaking more to cisgendered men, we maybe speak more to performance anxiety, erection difficulties, um, finishing too quickly or taking too long. And that's not for us as the therapist to say you're taking too long or you're finishing too quickly. That's according to their own um time frame and what feels frustrating for them. But if we're speaking more to straight women who are uh suffering the most from the orgasm gap or anybody who feels like they could um use some help having more orgasms, um I would say getting to know your own body is an incredible resource because if I don't know what I like, how am I going to express that to someone else? I think also exploring different avenues of pleasure. So if I always masturbate, which I'm a huge proponent for masturbation, absolutely. We're actually in masturbation month. This is the last day. So if you haven't yet, I really do encourage you to take advantage of this last day. Yeah, it's the last day. Just go all out. Um, so with masturbation, we can discover more ways of pleasure or different ways of touching ourselves, using toys, not using toys. If you always um masturbate or you always finish in the same way, I would challenge you to switch it up. So if you always masturbate when you get out of the shower, you're feeling relaxed, work is over for the day, you are wearing comfy clothing, your sheets are clean, the lights are off, you light a candle, that's great. But that makes it difficult to replicate that context when you're with someone else, and it makes it more difficult to calm with that person. So the more you can switch it up and add more variety, the better off you'll be with another person if you're someone who struggles to orgasm with someone else. So you can practice maybe different positions. If you always watch porn or listen to audio erotica, try nothing. Try just using your imagination or try with your eyes closed, with your eyes open, wearing something else. Just switch it up. It's very helpful.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:08

For sure. I think you mentioned also like the shower part for me. Um, I think a couple years ago, I remember I was um heading home and I was like, Oh, I still have to wash my hair. And I was just like, uh, and then I was like, no, you get to wash your hair. I was like, this is I know it's like kind of like, oh, children in Africa are dying, so you must finish your untasty meal. But um yeah, it was like, you know, to so many displays people do not even have access to shower. I should be grateful. I still get to shower and wash my hair. And with that attitude, I went into the shower and I actually started massaging my hair like a hairdresser would, you know, slowly and actually enjoying the moment and the water. And that, phew, I was so horny right after I got out of the shower. I was like, this is the time to get some action right now, too. I was ready to go.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:49

I love that you did that because it's a very common homework assignment I like to use in therapy, bringing the mindfulness piece in. So when we say mindfulness, sometimes people roll their eyes and go, I don't like meditating. Don't make me sit alone for 30 minutes in silence. But there are a thousand other ways to practice mindfulness, just like you said, when you shower, or when you get out of the shower and you put lotion on your body, are you just slapping it on real quick? Or are you, you know, taking a moment to actually enjoy the skin-skin contact and appreciating your body for what it does and it got you through the day, or um, you know, looking at the present moment, how can I be more in it as opposed to just getting through it? So when we look at sex that way, we find much more enjoyment in it as well. It's not just boom, boom, get to the end, but it is how can I really dive into this pleasure right now and like really enjoy it? Like when we eat a meal, right? We don't just want to like scarf it down as fast as possible and then get a stomachache. We want to, you know, sometimes yes, but a lot of times we want to be able to actually enjoy what we're eating. You know, it's like enjoying the ride, not just the destination, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:03:57

Yeah, savoring the moment and really cherishing your body with every opportunity you have and thanking it for where it gets you at the same time, too.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:04

And for a lot of people, especially women who are struggling to orgasm, which is one of the main problems that people come to therapy with, um, having this kind of moment of presence or appreciation or just slowing down, or especially mothers, right? There's where is the time in their day to just slow down and enjoy their own body and feeling into different ways of pleasure. So you can eat a chocolate croissant and get a lot of pleasure from that. But if I'm blocking myself from that pleasure or I go about my day completely fueled by cortisol and stress, it's gonna be really hard to when I get into bed with my partner, magically turn on that sexy switch and feel turned on and aroused. It's it's a process for a lot of people. And when they are able to understand that process and their partners are able to, they're more likely to orgasm.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:58

And do you have final tips? Do you need final three tips on just better sex out there? I don't know, it's it's very a little generic, but if anything springs to mind that we can enlighten the masses and make them more horny and enjoy sex more, let's do this.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:15

Number one, talk about sex. Number two, look at the myths and harmful messages that you carry from your sex ed or lack thereof. And maybe work with a therapist, maybe take a course, maybe read a book. Plenty of amazing books. Maybe we can add those later. Um, like Come As You Are by Emily Dagowski is a great starter. Um number three, if I had to really narrow it down, work on your self-esteem because our self-esteem is tied to a lot of the decisions that we make and the partners that we choose, whether that's a one-night stand or a 10-year marriage. If we're choosing from a place of wanting to fill a void, that kind of sex and that kind of relationship is gonna leave us feeling more empty than when we started. So working on accepting yourself as a flawed individual. Self-esteem is not, oh, I've reached this perfect point of I fixed all my problems. It is I am someone with weaknesses and strengths, and I recognize both and I accept and respect myself anyway.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:19

Awesome. Uh, final question can you fuck your way to enlightenment?

SPEAKER_00 1:06:26

So let's see. If we were to think about this as a solo adventure, I think definitely, I think we are able to find out a lot about ourselves and improve our level of connection to a higher power if that's something you believe in, or improving your self-esteem by getting more in touch with our sexuality, and that doesn't just depend on other people. It's also just finding our own ways of giving ourselves pleasure, which is yes, very sexual or sensual inside the bedroom outside. And I think there's a lot of growth that can happen there. So you'll tell me when you get there.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:07

I will show Kyfi June. Well, thank you very much. Uh, really appreciate it. And uh, we'll put some c uh comments under with the links to the books as well.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:17

Perfect. Yeah, I'm happy to share so many resources and thank you so much for having me.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:21

Thank you.